The Employee Handbook - A Human Resources Podcast by 2 Lawyers
"The Employee Handbook - An Human Resources Podcast", hosted by attorneys Arta Wildeboer and Ryan Ellis, offers expert insights into human resources issues and their legal implications, providing valuable guidance for navigating the complex intersection of HR practices and employment law. This informative series is essential for HR professionals and business managers seeking to understand and prevent legal challenges in the workplace.
The Employee Handbook - A Human Resources Podcast by 2 Lawyers
Just Shut Up Already: Human Resource Myths Debunked
Can you sue your boss for being mean? Is workplace bullying illegal in California? What does HR actually do—and what are they required to tell you?
Employment lawyers Arta Wildeboer and Ryan Ellis separate fact from fiction on the most common workplace myths that trip up California employees and employers alike.
What We Cover:
HR Complaints & Investigations
- HR is not the principal's office—when to go to your manager first
- What employees are legally entitled to know during a workplace investigation
- Your right to participate vs. your right to see the full investigative file
Hostile Work Environment & Workplace Bullying
- What legally qualifies as a hostile work environment in California
- Protected characteristics under FEHA: race, sex, religion, national origin, age (40+), disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, pregnancy, marital status, veteran status
- Why being called names or yelled at daily isn't automatically illegal
- The difference between an unpleasant boss and unlawful harassment
First Amendment & Social Media at Work
- Free speech protects you from government prosecution—not from getting fired
- What speech IS protected: union organizing, whistleblowing, reporting illegal conduct
- Social media posts that can get you terminated
Employer Obligations
- Why California corporations must have legal representation in court
- Training requirements (or lack thereof) for managers
- What employers actually owe employees under California law
Practical Advice
- Why you should never delete text messages, Slack messages, or Teams chats
- When to document, when to escalate, when to leave
- The limits of the legal system for solving workplace problems
Hosted by: Arta Wildeboer (Law Office of Arta Wildeboer, Downey CA) and Ryan Ellis — California employment attorneys breaking down real-world HR and workplace law issues.
Disclaimer: Entertainment only. Not legal advice. Not your lawyers. California-focused.
Hello and welcome back to another very special episode of the Employee Handbook HR podcast by two lawyers, hosted by me, Arda, and my friend Ryan here. Ryan, you want to say hello? Hello, hello. Um, okay. So we're getting into it today. We're gonna do some like SEO friendly stuff. We're gonna do like employment employer employee myths. Uh, because like people love that crap. Like, I see it, you know, buzz sprout, all that kind of stuff. If everybody wants top 10 lists and myths, clickbait, the clickbait. Like we're trying to put clickbait out there so you click on this. That's right. So we're doing myths. The number one myth is that your boss hate hates you. That's probably not a myth.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah, I think it does hate you uh absolutely. I was gonna say, I don't think your boss cares. I think the boss does not care at all. And anybody who thinks the boss hates them is either right because they did something wrong, like to deserve that hate, or just is too anxious, like you and I are, where the boss just does not care. The boss doesn't give you a second thought, the boss doesn't know your middle name, the boss doesn't probably doesn't know your first name and doesn't really care at all.
Arta Wildeboer:Well, it's like being it again, it all goes back to people conflating the workplace with being at school. Um when and HR becomes the principal's office, and you want to tell on people and you need uh uh retribution for like these crimes committed against you by other other employees slash students at the at the school. And so um, you know, that it that is a big thing that that people think uh one of the myths is that HR is like a principal's office that's meant to, you know, solve interpersonal program uh problems, excuse me, between employees. So uh Ryan, why why don't you just talk about how HR is not the place that you're supposed to go with interpersonal problems?
Ryan Ellis:I was gonna say my first comment like mentally when you said HR is like the principal's office or HR is like there to solve your problems is that you're an adult. Like you have a job in the real world, you are an adult. You should be able to handle yourself like an adult. Again, I'm not saying you have to be perfect, I'm not saying you have to be some sort of saint, but you're an adult. Like if you go to McDonald's and they get their your order wrong, do you cry about it or you say, hey, like my burger is wrong or my chicken nuggets are wrong or whatever? Like you have to be an adult. And I think that too many people rely on other people to handle their problems. And HR is one of those places. Now, again, there are times. Uh, I'm sorry, I'm gonna stake a step back because we need to give the disclosure of we are we are lawyers, we are not your lawyers. This is for entertainment purposes only. Um, we're here to make you smile, but also to shed some light on real world issues, uh, most specifically to California, where we are both licensed. Um, if you have any questions, you can let us know.
Arta Wildeboer:Okay, so going to also like just common sense. Like you can't expect me to help you if you don't give me some money first. Well, they might ask HR about that. Um that's not true. I will help you for free uh if you make like really funny jokes or something like that. Um but yeah, uh one thing that that uh I wanted to say is that yeah, it it is something incumbent on people to have uh a little bit of personal responsibility and maturity and not kind of uh run uh run to their manager or HR all the time when having interpersonal problems. But if you are gonna run to somebody, run to your manager first. Because in a uh well put together organization uh or company, what you have is the delineation of um of tasks and responsibilities within your organization. And one of the things that HR is not supposed to do, in my opinion, that managers are supposed to do is fix interpersonal problems between employees.
Ryan Ellis:Right. And and to manage. I mean, they're there to manage. If you have a if for some reason two people have a personal problem, the manager gets involved and tries to resolve it. And if they can't resolve it, then they can join in another person from another department or their manager. Or if it gets to a point where human resources is needed, then you can. But again, it's it's a military-like hierarchy, hierarchical, hierarchy, hierarchical like platform. You don't just someone doesn't do like say something that you overhear that so offends you that you run right to the principal. Like that's not how that's not how this works.
Arta Wildeboer:And that's a good segue because let's say something does happen like legitimate and you go complain to your manager and uh they feel like an investigation is warranted. Uh, Ryan, as a defense attorney, can you explain a little bit as an employee, what are your rights um in regards to this investigation? Let's say you asked, uh you made a complaint, now there's an investigation. What can you expect to learn from your employer about this investigation?
Ryan Ellis:Well, I think it really depends on the situation and it depends on the company. I mean, if I let's go with the sexual harassment because that's easy to kind of hone in on, and that's serious enough where an investigation is warranted every time. So you make a sexual harassment allegation, you probably, again, depending on who it is, want to make that to your manager. Or if it's the manager is the one harassing you, maybe you want to make that directly to HR. Um, you probably want to do it both ways with sexual harassment. But the point is that there's going to be an investigation, or there should be, and that investigation results should be conveyed to you. Um, what part of the investigation should be conveyed to you? Well, I mean, that again also depends on what happens. I think there's a lot of gray area on what can and should be told to you, but obviously you're gonna know um that the investigation was conducted and the result thereof.
Arta Wildeboer:What about legally? Do you have the right to look over the documents? Do you have the right to like ask your own questions? Uh if you're the employee, I know the answer, but you know, I'm trying to tee you up here.
Ryan Ellis:Well, I mean, my I this is that's a good question. I mean, as the employee, you're not entitled to the entire investigative file. Uh, my position has always been that you're entitled to the result and you're entitled to participate, but you're not entitled to every single document, every single internal memo, every single message, and every single meeting that's conducted relating to your investigation. Now, I know that that may or may not come out later if a lawsuit is filed, but a lot of times investigative files are treated as privileged information. Again, that that's a live by the sword, die by the sword argument that defense, some defense attorneys make. But no, I mean you're not you're not entitled to be part of that, but you are entitled to participate and you are entitled to the result.
Arta Wildeboer:You're thinking and one thing that I wanted to mention here is that I think a lot of people, you know, I don't know if it's out of stubbornness, out of out of what it is, but you know, they they will stay in situations uh where they could just leave and find a new job. I mean, I know that's not easy, but a lot of times that's gonna be the the answer for you because businesses in general are designed to make money. That that's what they're for. Um they're not places that are necessarily uh supposed to be designed to be, you know, great places for people to hang out and be all day and and you know, like have a great environment where people are nice to each other. Those are not things that are necessarily guaranteed by law. Um, so you know the expectations people have from their workplaces to solve these problems and things like that, I think become inflated. And and at a point, like people have to take responsibility to say, okay, I gotta get the hell out of here and and find something else. Because what you know, you can't jump into a public pool and then tell everybody to stop slashing you. Exactly. No, it works.
Ryan Ellis:That's that's a that's a very good analogy. And also the the whole like making work comfortable for you. Employers do that to keep you there. Like when Google has free food and nap pods and all that stuff, they don't do it because they like you. They do it because they want to keep you there. They want to make sure you don't leave and you do more work because they're paying you money to do your work. So that it's it's a it's a very nice mental trick that employers uh conduct, like having it like again, you need to have a workplace you can do your job in. It needs to be, you know, there's rules about heat, there's rules about spacing, there's rules about, you know, standing and sitting and all this other crap. There's rules. But at the end of the day, like those rules are very skeletal. You're not entitled to uh a two couches in your office with a pullout bed and a shower and like a turndown service. You're not entitled to that by law. You're entitled to a reasonable workplace to be able to conduct your job. And oh yeah, I totally agree.
Arta Wildeboer:I think another problem that um people have is that um they think that every issue that they have has to be brought up to HR as well. Um, and uh it's just not the case. Sometimes, again, you have to have a little bit of restraint in how you deal with problems at work as an employee, um, knowing that um, yeah, it might not be fair that somebody talked to you in a certain way or this or that, but um causing uh a company to have to do repeated investigations on your behalf for things, even though they may be illegal, could also just lead to you getting fired for being annoying. And, you know, don't try to rely necessarily on the legal system to solve this problem for you because it's not something that you're gonna have a quick result.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah. And I mean, it's it's funny that we have to even talk about this kind of thing. Um, I remember when I was a kid, I worked for a a large hotel chain in one of their restaurants, you know, making sandwiches and stuff. And I I was treated different ways by different people. And I almost had an apprehension of my manager just because I felt privileged to have the job and like, oh my gosh, like I'm like, yeah, whatever he tells me to do, I gotta do. Like I've had those feelings. But at the end of the day, like if he was mistreating me, like I'm not gonna cry to management. I'm gonna say, look, I'm gonna either tell him, please don't talk to me that way, or if it was that bad, I would tell a coworker or talk to somebody else in my department to try to figure out how to deal with that person. I mean, if you told me to work overtime, I wouldn't cry and go to HR. If he told me to that I was doing my job poorly and needed to, you know, to change my ways, I wouldn't go to HR because I was being yelled at. Like, that's not how this is done. Um and I I still like as a professional who defends companies, I still find it hard a lot of times to justify how people act these days. And I think that's why I tend to favor the defense in in a lot of my things. It's like a lot of problems and a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of agg aggravation could have been prevented by just common sense.
Arta Wildeboer:Yeah, I agree. I mean, uh I see it from both sides because as an employer as well, um, I think one of the main misconceptions uh that that I don't think it's a generational thing. I don't think it's Gen X, Gen Z, whatever. I think just people inexperience is the main thing, and maybe people just not knowing. But um, you know, one thing that I get a lot of pushback on from employees, uh especially younger employees, is that's not my job. That's not my job. They they get mad when uh other employees ask them for help or something like that. Maybe they think they're being used or taken advantage of. But that that's one of the big things. That's not my job. And I think just in general, I think what will help people, this is not legal advice, but just kind of life advice, is your job is to make your boss's life easier. If you look at it that way, you're gonna do well. Um, you know, there's no legal requirement that like you have to do exactly what's on the paper. So uh that you sign for your uh your job description.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah, it's it's not all inclusive. It's not you're only limited to writing account to doing accounting. You have to deal with intra, you know, put you have to deal with people, you have to deal with other people's reports, you have to audit other people's things. I mean, it's all part of the job. It's not just, oh, my job description says sit in this chair and and you know talk to potential clients. You have to do a lot more than that.
Arta Wildeboer:So yeah, and that's that's again, that's something that you leave the job if you're not happy with it. What is your uh what is your remedy if you don't like the tasks that you've been given because maybe they're a departure from what your expectation was?
Ryan Ellis:Well we know this answer. The answer is cry. Cry and possibly ask for more tissues. That's your remedy, is cry because crying, yeah.
Arta Wildeboer:You can cry, you can talk to your boss, you can leave, but you can't sue. That's that's not something that you can sue for. Yeah. Um, let's see, some other kind of misconceptions uh about this kind of freedom of speech is a good one. We we did a whole episode on um social media. I think we did, right? Yeah, we did one. And like stuff you're not supposed to say. So freedom of speech, Ryan, um, what does that mean to you in this context?
Ryan Ellis:Well, I think there's uh everybody, everybody, I think, uh has a misunderstanding of what the constitution protects and doesn't protect, especially with the social media culture that we have in today's environment. Was that the First Amendment does not uh apply to or equate to private employer protections? Um, like speech is protected when you're you know doing like national labor relations stuff. You're talking you're talking about collective bargaining or for forming a union. Your speech is absolutely protected when you're, you know, whistleblowing to the government about what you believe or or or see to be as some sort of a a violation of of law, uh, and also making complaints about you know things you experience in the work that are illegal, like harassment, uh retaliation, um, and discrimination um or like wage issues you're having. But when speech gets you fired, for example, you don't have free speech by harassing other people. You don't have free speech by just being a terror in the office and being that that person. I want to say that guy, but we can't say that anymore. It's being that person in the office. If you're that person, then no one's gonna like you. One, and two, you're gonna get in trouble. You don't, you although you won't get in trouble like criminally under the First Amendment, you can't just be a terror at the workplace and cause a bunch of drama, uh, or you know, not harass, but harass people essentially by telling bad jokes or being, you know, a bully or whatever, none of that's okay. And then, or you know, the the funny thing these days is what people think that posting on social media is just like totally fine. Whatever you post on social media is fine because you have the first amendment. Not true. Again, like if you start posting about your work on social media uh in a negative light, you're gonna have a bad day. It's not gonna work out well.
Arta Wildeboer:Exactly. Like if you post on social media about your work, it means the government can't come arrest you for it. That's what the First Amendment means. It doesn't mean that your boss can't say, like, oh my God, I can't believe this idiot telling everybody that like I fart on the cabbage.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah, that that's a very specific example. But yes, absolutely. I mean, that's that that's a very good point that I want to harp on again, not about the cabbage, but the fact that um if you speak in a way that that um would be protected by the First Amendment, you just can't get arrested for it. Like you can talk bad about the government if you want to. Again, your choice, but you won't get arrested for it. You might be ostracized socially for that. Um, you might be, you know, looked down upon by people that you work with or looked up upon by people you work with. But again, you're you're making that decision to do, you won't get arrested. But you go somewhere like England and you do that, or like, and they have they're known for recently doing this to a lot of people about criticizing the government. You'll get arrested for social media posts. Like you'll get arrested, you will go to jail, they will find you guilty. Someone wearing a fake wig will send you to jail. Um, it's just how it works. So, like the one of the benefits, the cornerstones of American uh government is that we can we have the right of free speech, and that's what made um what made the United States government what it is is this this free speech thing. So, again, the big the big misconception here is that you can't talk about, or I'm sorry, you can talk about whatever you want, when in fact you can, but you won't be criminally prosecuted for most things. Again, not everything is protected by the First Amendment, but that doesn't mean that your employer can take action against you if you start defaming it online or you know you're you start posting live streams of you doing farting on cabbage at work, like those kind of things, which again, people do, but I don't know why they do it. It's not protected by the First Amendment.
Arta Wildeboer:Um I I think you you touched on a little bit of the First Amendment stuff about being a terror at work, and so we we've talked about this before, but it bears repeating. Um, you can be a terror at work and not um and not give your company exposure for a discrimination or harassment lawsuit. Um, so in a really roundabout way, that means that you can be an asshole um unless you're being an asshole about specific legally protected characteristics. Um so um, you know, which which makes difficult uh uh for lawsuits and things like that. But let's explain a little bit about what we mean about this. So, Ryan, what are the characteristics off the top of your head that you're gonna Google right now quietly? Um or uh protected characteristics under the constitution um that would um that would mean hostile environment.
Ryan Ellis:Uh or so harassment discrimination, you cannot be harassed or discriminated against based on protected characteristics, uh race, religion, sex, including pregnancy, sexual orientation, gender identity, um national origin, your age if you're over 40, disability, and genetic information. Um California is broader than that. It covers marital status, veteran status, reproductive decisions you make too. So that can create a hostile work environment or lead to negative job actions. And if it does, then you know you have uh a claim for unfair treatment um via the DFEH, or I don't know what they change it to, the employee right ER ERD employee rights division, civil rights division. They just changed a year ago. Yeah, you guys can do it. But those are the protected reasons. So like I I'm trying to find an example because in California, essentially anything you say is protected. So like button.
Arta Wildeboer:Well, you can call someone an idiot.
Ryan Ellis:Of course. Uh of course, or or like you let's say you don't like someone because of their choice of movies. Like you don't like that they like horror movies and you like comedies or or dramas or you know, I don't know, cartoons. But like if you continue to make fun of somebody because of the the movies they watch, that although although it's completely legal to do in the criminal context, might cause you to have a tough time at work or cause you to, you know, face some adverse employment, or be fired, or not have any friends, or all of the above.
Arta Wildeboer:What happens if your boss calls you a dummy every day? What do you think? Does that count as like a hostile work environment under the law in California?
Ryan Ellis:Just broadly. Well well, that's the thing, is it no, because that does not involve race, color, religion, sex, uh, national origin, age, disability, or genetic information. So if if you truly are being a dummy, it's not nice. It's not the best way to go about things. Um, could it rise to an un you know, some sort of hostile environment? It could, but is it technically illegal? No. By itself, no. Um, it's not. Okay. Um, but but if the employer starts, you know, demoting you and putting you in places that you can't do the job to try to fire you, no, based on because you're also a woman or you're also African American or you're also, you know, from Palestine or you're also pregnant. I mean, that's another issue. Okay.
Arta Wildeboer:So um, again, that just means remember, if somebody's bullying you at work, uh either stand up to them, go talk to your manager about it, or find a new job. Uh, unfortunately, there's not really many more good options than that. Or you can kick their ass in the parking lot. Uh, that's not legal advice, but that would be kind of cool. And like I I would think you were dope if you kick somebody's ass in the parking lot who's bullying you at work. Of course, I would not um pay for any of your legal uh services or anything like that or your after work.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah, that goes that goes to the waiver that uh those um what's it called? The legal disclaimer we provided earlier. Like that's not legal advice. We're not your lawyers.
Arta Wildeboer:Um, something I think would be cool. Like if you like, let's say you had like a six-foot wall or seven-foot wall separating your building from the parking lot at work, and then you happen to jump off that wall and karate kick somebody who was bullying you, that would be cool, but I would not recommend that legally.
Ryan Ellis:Okay, so this is funny because I got an email. I get this email every day with like news, right? I see news very, very lightly. And one of the things in it was apparently there's something called Taka Nakui, which is a unique Andean A-N-D-E-A-N festival in Peru held around Christmas, where people settle their disputes and grudges through supervised fist fights to start the new year with peace, and they all get drunk to numb the pain. So I go I saw it in my email yesterday. I Googled it just now and it came up again. So there are argues, there are articles about this where people settle their disputes by fighting. And I feel like that is the coolest thing ever. Like you, you and I got a problem, we're gonna fight it, we're gonna drink together, and we're gonna move on. Like, we're not gonna hold grudges. Like, if if I feel that much to want to fight you over it, that's it.
Arta Wildeboer:Oh, I am the complete opposite. No, I will. not by you. I will just hold a grudge until I'm like 95 and then show up to your funeral and just be the last person to shovel the dirt. But you'll have no idea and then I'll just get you right at the end because I'm Persian and I'm really scared of confrontation.
Ryan Ellis:You wouldn't do well in uh in the the Andes.
Arta Wildeboer:And he's I don't think so. No, no. I don't I don't think the uh the Andes suit me at all for my style of uh dispute resolution. But moving on from bad stories about the Andes and uh failed attempts at jokes. Um uh let's see what are my notes here uh if you're an employer um one thing that you need to know uh if you're a corporation you need to have an attorney you cannot be a corporation and not be represented by an attorney in court so that's something that um I see a well I don't know about a lot but uh from time to time when you sue small businesses uh you see the owner of the business will show up to like a a court hearing or something like that and then be informed by the judge that they indeed are required by California law to be represented by counsel at all uh court proceedings. So that's just one thing that I don't know if that's a myth, but um No it's not a myth.
Ryan Ellis:That is that is a that is what they people think they own it and therefore they can be it. So that's that happens all the time. And and I want to criticize the courts a little bit because they give too much leeway to people who file answers on behalf of themselves and their companies which some judges are very good at it by saying look you have 30 days other judges are like well we'll give them another time and you know technically this and it's all a bunch of BS by law that's why we have jobs like literally as an attorney the only thing we have with our license is the ability to represent other people. That's it. Our job allows us to represent other people relating to the law or whatever else they agree to let us represent them to so you as a non-attorney cannot represent legal entities you cannot represent anybody else you know was subject to probate and powers of attorney all that crap but doesn't work. As an attorney we are allowed um so unless you want to become an attorney quit making our jobs harder just hire an attorney it everything is a lot although it costs some money to hire an attorney um and it sucks dealing with attorneys sometimes you just got to do it.
Arta Wildeboer:Yeah and I think a lot of people uh business owners you know this is this is one of the reasons that um selling HR and and stuff like that just totally sucks as a business because um most people they don't pay attention to this kind of stuff as something that they need to have um for their business and as a business owner you need to understand like you can't just open a business and then possibly hurt members of the public with your products or your services and then expect that nothing is going to happen to you that you're not going to be liable you have to have funding as a business you have to have some money saved you have to have um like money put aside for hiring a lawyer for having a handbook for having somebody help you set up things in a legal correct way these are very important things because you are potentially harming people by being a business owner. So you have to be a responsible person that's able to do all the things that the government requires so members of the public don't get hurt. This is not like a thing that's unfair this is a thing that this is the machinery and the the oil that keeps the machinery of society going, I should say.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah and that's and that's just a cost of doing business right and that's especially true in states like California where it conducting business is just a minefield. Like what you come into California you moved here from Texas or you moved here from Michigan or wherever like it's a minefield here. A lot of states you can just kind of open a business and not worry about much as long as you pay your employees but like you know and again most other places minimum wages are much lower. But point being is that you come to California it's a minefield you have one thing wrong on your wage statement boom paga claim you have like you don't give somebody a meal period um excuse me a meal period premium because they worked an extra minute over the legally acquired uh legally required time boom that's a lawsuit like literally the smallest of things and again you might think it's dumb you might think that the law is stupid you might think that you know it's a technicality and you shouldn't be responsible but you're wrong. Every single time you're wrong and it will cost you so much money. So the point that I think Arda is making is you need to just bake into your business budgets um you know HR services from a qualified HR professional or outside organization andor legal counsel period.
Arta Wildeboer:Yeah and and again there's no way out of it if you're gonna be in a business uh you're gonna have some sort of legally related issues and you're just uh by definition in a world that is gonna be tied to statutes and laws and things like that. So you have to know about them. And one thing to just keep in mind that you know as an employee your workplace is just concerned about making money. That that's the main thing that they're there for and you have to understand that. And um you know necessarily creating an environment that's the happy place for you to be is not their number one thing.
Ryan Ellis:And again this is this is incumbent on you to decide whether a workplace is for you uh in terms of the uh workload the culture and all those types of things i mean if you don't like being yelled at then don't work there it's not a time to go sue yeah you don't like to be yelled at don't work at a New York style barbershop just the way it is right yeah or those places like where they like cuss at you when you order hot dogs oh yeah with uh Dick's last resort is that the place they call you names and all that stuff it's pretty funny in Chicago or something like that they're like hey motherfucker you want a hot dog hey you you want a hot dog I bet you do you want six yeah like one of those people yeah don't do that but you can't get sued for that uh so what else let's see um um as an employee admit that your manager has to train you is that true Ryan does your manager have to train you well I mean they need to train you in like what the specific systems that the company would have but other than that no there's no requirement that you take man that your manager has to train you I mean that that that's a really weird a really weird thing to assume especially because usually when you're being hired you're being hired for your experience like if you're being hired to like let's let's let's start at like a McDonald's right if you're being hired to to make hamburgers like someone's gonna have to train you but it doesn't have to be your immediate supervisor. It could be a TV show that they record could be anything. But again the the training then is limited to the systems.
Arta Wildeboer:Well the reason I brought it up is because if it happened to me once let's hear it what happened uh no I had I had an employee come to me and say that uh uh she was having an issue with her manager because her manager refused to train her because they had a uh interpersonal issue um so you know regardless of the the kind of management stuff that you have to do to to wipe that under or just get rid of that problem I should say or solve the problem you know it was just something that she thought was guaranteed by law that your manager has to train you and I had I said okay well why does your manager have to train you well she said so I know how to do my job so what's the consequence of not knowing how to do your job well I would get fired. Okay but if your manager or you know me knows that there's an issue that's causing you to not be able to do your job then you're not gonna get fired. I'm telling you so there's no issue here. But it it was something that they felt like hey no I am guaranteed that this job has to uh has to train me. No that's not true. They can train you because it's in their benefit to train you uh because so you can do the job but they don't necessarily have to provide training for you for the job. So that that's like another thing like what what does your job owe you?
Ryan Ellis:Training is not one well yeah I don't think your job owes you much. I think the job just owes you payment. I mean that's really you're here to make money you're not here to like change the world and if you are here to change the world you're you're working probably for the wrong company. There are companies that do that and the government has divisions that do that but usually private employers that are not nonprofits so they're for profit corporations usually do not delve into the you know we're here for a bigger purpose uh unless it's like to get you to work harder. Because oh yeah we're here for a bigger purpose. This robot we're designing is going to change the world like that's one thing. They say we're here for a bigger purpose because we're gonna go in and you know save a hundred kids a day from like abusive families that's very very commendable and but that's much different than creating robots that'll you know plant trees in the Amazon.
Arta Wildeboer:Yeah I think that's a huge thing that I notice um you know we we haven't done it this time but I I'll uh browse Reddit for ideas you know to talk about this and it and one thing that I see with a lot of uh HR people especially is this attitude that um there's producers uh and this is used like pejoratively producers in the company who are um favored and uh it it just it just kind of racks my brain to think that well what do you think we're all here for those producers are the ones driving the company that are paying your sally of course they're gonna be favored um and the they're really the most important thing uh to ensure the health of the company going forward. Um you know the it's one thing to create like a great environment and stuff like that, but that's not your job as an HR person. You're just here to help a company remain compliant. And if the boss wants to create a certain atmosphere or a certain kind of working culture that's that's their business. If you're not there um to make sure things are fair um with contradicting what the boss wants to do culturally if it's not illegal and you're not a lawyer anyway so how do you know yeah I was going to add on to that it goes back to being someone's favorite like the employee I'm sorry the boss is going to like you if you do your job the boss gonna like you more if you make the boss's job easier.
Ryan Ellis:The boss can like you even more than that if you make their job easier you do your job and you make them more money. Like that it's just it's just again common sense. If you have two people of the exact same makeup whatever that may be sitting next to each other same race same creed same religion same sex again I'm not basing it on that that's what I'm saying everything is the same and same knowledge base. One person makes the company X amount of dollars more a year the other one complains about doing their job which one is the person which one's the boss going to like period like again common sense. So it's one of those things where there should there I don't know I don't want to say it this way but I'm going to people who aren't the producers complain about the producers.
Arta Wildeboer:Yes and and I I think generally again this is not like a generational thing but I think in general United States people have a huge backlash the idea of a hierarchical society in any way uh you know America is everybody is you know a but a king in his own right or uh you know whatever and nobody can tell me what to do in this and that and I think that kind of bleeds over into the work environment and yeah I mean you know in in the parking lot after work you know that manager can't say shit to you about you know what you're wearing or whatever. But yeah I mean during that work I mean you're if you want people to pay you you got to do stuff for it. And and part of it is is kind of tucking in your uh your ego and and things like that and uh you know not always going to uh to think oh I'm gonna sue you I'm gonna sue you that's not gonna work this is more of kind of like life advice that the legal system is not going to save you from your own um lack of social skills.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah agreed agreed and that's the thing is you don't get a job to take over the job and become like a hot like become a I don't know like a like a bank robber who takes hostages like you're not you don't do that like you're not you're there to do a job and go home.
Arta Wildeboer:Um a lot of times this the psychiatrists uh always say that like you know psychiatrists are crazy because uh or therapists are crazy because it that's the type of people it attracts you know therapists um need their own therapist so they want to be therapists so HR people a lot of times they have um traits or characteristics in their personality that make them um want to solve problems in a way um that is sticking to the rules but also abrasive to others because it's kind of like a power thing like this is not like a power thing uh you know that you're not as an HR person you have to think I'm just trying to make things go smooth I am the oil for the engine I'm not driving anything think about that in your life and your job will be a lot easier.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah well I mean that's that people people take their jobs way too seriously sometimes and that's a good thing but when they start taking it personally is when it becomes what you're talking about because like if you go there and talk about you know reprimand somebody for doing something wrong either people get anxious about reprimanding or they take it so far of like you shouldn't have done this and blah blah blah and that becomes their like their pitchfork and and uh and torch moment. Yeah absolutely which again I don't I I understand where they're coming from but that's the they have a different thing they need to deal with outside of work as opposed to dealing with it you know on a professional level inside of work.
Arta Wildeboer:All right well we've been rambling for a while now um do you have anything else that you want to talk about uh realistically that uh would be interesting to anybody I I don't really I think I've seen everything on my list here.
Ryan Ellis:Realistically I mean just a couple a couple like thoughts I guess is that um when we talk about complaining like a lot of people think they need to complain immediately or it's not an issue. I've dealt with this in a recent case where like you can complain about serious issues at any time um but just remember that sometimes if you don't complain about something it won't be fixed. So like for example if you have a person who is experiencing what they believe to be discrimination if that person doesn't complain or doesn't let somebody know about it when there are no other witnesses uh or even if there are witnesses the management's not going to know and they can't take corrective action. The management can't you can't say management should have known because how would they if there's no witnesses? And then third is if you have witnesses you know artists harassing me at work, if there's somebody that sees it happen because they're in the lunchroom at the same time, then I I can't rely on that third person to go say something. I can't. Although it might happen and that would be great you know so management could be involved. It doesn't necessarily need to happen. So uh legally although you may not have to complain about something for it to become uh an issue later on um you know because for fear of retaliation or whatever and that's all valid um uh complaining about things or or complaining may be bad in a situation meaning that the word complain. So like letting people know about things that happen sooner than later obviously helps you mitigate the problems at work. So that's one thing I wanted to bring up that you know we have to complain immediately. You don't have to but it does help the situation again depending on what it is. And the other thing too is uh deleting your text messages and your and your Slack messages because those are all writings and you can have proof of something happening if you have uh a text message or a Slack message or something um you know somebody might promise you a promotion and then they confirm it in a Slack message or a a team's message or a or a text message. If you delete that text message then it's a bit of a problem for you but that that can count as a writing um that you know helps you later on when saying oh well it wasn't in writing it doesn't count but a text message does count.
Arta Wildeboer:Yeah and um again all those things people never think uh do you have any writing do you have any proof? Yeah all your text message that's the one that they always forget you have to go through and and when they say everything it means everything you telling somebody oh man I don't feel good because so and so was bothering me at work today is that's great evidence right there.
Ryan Ellis:Yeah. And so it's just it's again this all goes down to common sense right if if somebody tells you something in some sort of writing it's common sense. If someone you know is acting like an asshole about things that are not on listed under federal or California law it's not illegal but should they be doing it? No. Does that mean you should fight them in the parking lot? Maybe I don't know but again that's work. You're not there to make friends and you're not there to like establish some sort of political social hierarchy to make you the boss of your your cubicle pod. That's not why you're there. You're there to do a job you're hired by you know triple A, you're gonna there to process insurance and and registrations. You're hired by Google, you're there to program or whatever. You're not there to to sit there in the lunch room and and you know get all the goths together with all the jocks and all the the artist people and you know make make clicks. That's not why you're there.
Arta Wildeboer:Yeah and but also to be fair you're also not there to uh enforce some sort of like social um hierarchy and and uh behavior as an HR person again like the HR has become like a barber in the Wild West. It's like they do surgery it's like the the barber is doing surgery like HR is doing firing and and uh uh interpersonal stuff and uh also is calling the maintenance guy to like fix the uh the filter for the air conditioning like what the hell's going on here yeah um you know have have your HR just do one thing anyway we're just completely off the rails over here sorry you asked for comments I gave you comments okay so I guess we're gonna wrap this up I don't even know if anybody's listening if you are I love you uh hi Ryan's mom um and uh any uh closing comments no I mean I'm excited for to see what this new year brings and uh we're hopefully gonna bring you more and more content and uh yeah I'm excited happy new year got it we're probably gonna do like three more that we're gonna like forget about this shoe but if you got money and you want to send it to me please do you know for advertising and stuff like that not oh yeah all legitimate things I heard one guy one time in like third grade they told me some guy in the newspaper just put like hey this is your last chance to send me one dollar send or one dollar right now and all these people send him a dollar and then he got in trouble for it.
Ryan Ellis:Like why is that that sounds a great idea I gotta do that right now. Thank you. Okay. Thank you everybody
