The Employee Handbook - An HR Podcast by 2 Lawyers
"The Employee Handbook - An HR Podcast", hosted by attorneys Arta Wildeboer and Ryan Ellis, offers expert insights into human resources issues and their legal implications, providing valuable guidance for navigating the complex intersection of HR practices and employment law. This informative series is essential for HR professionals and business managers seeking to understand and prevent legal challenges in the workplace.
The Employee Handbook - An HR Podcast by 2 Lawyers
Uh, It's Called the 1st Amendment. It's in the Bible, Look it Up.
In a new segment designed to bring our audiences closer to our inner children, we ponder what life would be like if we'd taken a wildly different career path. That's exactly where Ryan and I start off our second season. Ryan makes an odd turn by making a play to become a member of the village people, while Arta looks to corner the market by appealing to a niche demo.
We then discuss the topic of personal/private social media posting as it relates to your job and why it might be a bad idea to broadcast your ideas to the world when you signed up for social media with your real name and where you work. This episode is where we finally start to figure out how to do a show.
Welcome back to the Employee Handbook. We've finally settled on the name. We're going to stick to Employee Handbook going forward, so no more debates about that. Ryan, I know you're definitely relieved to hear that.
Speaker 2:I actually like changing the name every single podcast. Okay, well, that's something that didn't make marketing difficult at all.
Speaker 1:No, not at all. Not at all. It's not like our podcast name is the name of something commonly found within this industry that makes Googling very difficult to find us found within this industry, that makes Googling very difficult to find us. But whatever you know, we we trudge on. So here this is season two, second episode. This is kind of like the first episode of season two because basically, I forgot to put on season seven or the episode seven of season one, so I just made it the season two, but I digressress. We want to thank all our listeners. Um, we, uh, we stopped paying attention to this for a little while and then I started noticing that we were getting a lot of listens and plays on um, itunes and stuff like that, which is something I was not expecting. So we thought we got. We got. Yeah, thank you so much. We got to give the people what they want, right, which, as I alluded to earlier and in my post on LinkedIn, was you coughing into the microphone and me just completely losing my train of thought while I'm talking.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, the coughing thing. I don't know what that was. I feel like I had some kind of sickness forever and then finally, one day I woke up and it was just gone. Now my kids have it. So it's all good, know, I'll have it. I'll have it a few more episodes, probably because you know kids and how they treat disease, I guess, or whatever it's called. But yeah, uh, that was a. That's gonna be a rough time capsule to look at in a few, in a few weeks, going back to to watch those episodes or listen to those episodes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm good thing there's only like 13 people listening to this, um so thanks mom I yeah I just uh, I just wanted to start off with letting our fans and um get to know us a little bit better, uh, and and our wonderful, wide-ranging amount of interest and and warm, kind personalities that we have. So, uh, to that effect, ryan, I wanted to ask you, because every lawyer hates being a lawyer and always complains they want to do something else. If you could do anything else, what would you see yourself doing?
Speaker 2:Let's see. Since I am great at sports, I probably would leave that for as a hobby.
Speaker 1:I'm not really good at talking, so I wouldn't want to be a debater or politician I should throw in there for our audience, ryan, actually a pretty sick athlete even at 38. What are you? Something like that, 39, hits the hell out of a golf ball and also plays hockey, or used to play hockey as an adult in like an adult league, which I can't even go for a walk for 10 minutes without being sore. I don't know how you freaking play hockey and hit people and all that kind of stuff. That just sounds very sore well, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Um, the golf ball I do hit it hard, it just doesn't go where I want it to go. Um, that's why golf balls to me are very expensive. And uh, the hockey yeah, hockey is fun, except we're all adults with day jobs, so not too much contact, but yes, it does get fun. Thank you. Arda is underplaying his own abilities as well. He does walk a lot. As a matter of fact, when we go eat, he has to take a walk after, and it's really annoying because I'm out. Hey, we just ate this huge meal, what are we doing? Let's walk around the parking lot a little bit and I'm like looking at him like he's crazy that's like that's an old guy move, that old guy move that, all old guys do that.
Speaker 1:So old guys, I mean they're old for a reason, because they know how to stick around. So I just have to copy what old guys do and you know, try it for the digestion. But anyway, we got away from our point, which was what would you do for a job?
Speaker 2:You said you went, I'd go into construction, I'd go into construction.
Speaker 1:You'd be like a construction worker or you'd be like a developer.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like a worker and I feel like I missed my calling as a kid because I had the opportunity and didn't take it. But I feel like people that work in construction. They have a somewhat set schedule. Although they get up early, they get off early, they work hard and so they're in shape. They get some vitamin D from the sun. They work hard and so they're in shape. You know, they kind of. They get some vitamin D from the sun and if you're good at what you do and you work your way up, you eventually can kind of do less of the hard work and more of the mental work as like a manager or a contractor. So I feel like I'd work my way up doing that because, yeah, I just I don't know, I feel like I'd just be out of an office and be much nicer.
Speaker 1:What about you, Arda? What would?
Speaker 2:you do.
Speaker 1:I I would open up a chain of karate studios in the Valley in LA and only teach people who wanted to be bullies. That would. That would be the thing. We would interview you in the beginning to be like all right, so like what are your goals? And then, if it was like to learn discipline and, like you know, defend myself you're out of here. We only want people who are bullies, so we're going to just pick on people smaller than that I've heard of this before.
Speaker 2:Isn't that like every bad guy in every karate movie? Yes, that is.
Speaker 1:Cobra Kai.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cobra Kai yes.
Speaker 1:From Karate Kid. But I do feel like there's definitely a market for something like that, even though in the eighties it seemed plausible, yet ridiculous at the same time, that there would be a place that only bullies attended. But I think you know bullies are probably you know something that we deal with a lot as employment attorneys, but that's a big untapped market. You know bullies they went after like nerds to make nerds of things. So I think we should do that with bullies especially. We're so experienced.
Speaker 2:No, after like nerds to make nerds of things. So I think we should do that with bullies especially. We're so experienced. I like it maybe, like you see these. I mean driving down I live in san diego, right. So driving down downtown going to some padres games, and I see this law firm I'm assuming it's a law firm that's like dedicated only to men for family law purposes, like men's rights advocate groups. You know there's women's rights advocate groups and I guess the belief in that one is that california family law is totally slanted towards females and against men. Maybe that's what it was for.
Speaker 2:Um, so you're gonna do the same thing except you're gonna do it for bullies, like you're like oh screw the little guy I want. I'm representing the thumb of the law and I'm going to assist in the in the beatdowns absolutely.
Speaker 1:We're gonna do stuff like um titty twisters. We're gonna do stuff like you know, tripping people when they're walking by the. The essential bully techniques bring back the uh, the swirlies yes, yes, we're gonna start every class watching the three stooges for about 10 minutes, together with the cheap shots, anyway. Um, going into what we're actually supposed to be talking about, uh, actually this is a.
Speaker 2:This is a good segue. Today we're talking about social media and how amazing your social media feed would be if you had that chain of karate studios.
Speaker 1:Um talking, just think about it right there on on ventura and sepalveda, there's the old rubens redhots building, which was a hot dog place that's been open or closed for about 30 years. We can open in there. I think that would be the starting place anyway. So we're going to talk about social media posting today, because this is, of course, you know, we're on the bleeding cutting edge of everything. So we're talking about um social media like myspace, facebook you know the things that the kids are using, oh yeah all the cool kids.
Speaker 2:Um, I learned recently and I want to say yesterday, because I don't have that much communication, but I live in a cave essentially but I I learned that if you, if you try to get somebody's phone number, like in college dating scene, that you are lame and you really want to ask for their instagram yes, yes, this is something that I've been exposed to from little cousins and stuff like that you can contact and they're just like give me your instagram, give me your instagram all
Speaker 2:right yeah, I thought that was extremely weird. I can't imagine um, but sorry.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I get freaked out. Anytime I get a phone call and I don't know who it's from, I panic. So I understand, uh, so we have a case, we're gonna, we're gonna start this off with, uh, an example from reddit, which we love to do and already it's awesome. Shout out to reddit. Shout out to Reddit exactly for doing our job for us. This one was a Ask HR post from 27 days ago. Today is Wednesday, may 15th, so sometimes in April, and so somebody they wrote, spoken to by my manager because coworker is uncomfortable with what I post on my personal social media.
Speaker 2:No, stop, that's the title right. Hammer time, yes, yeah, so just off the title alone, I'm thinking. I'm like I don't know what, licking my lips with, like as the big bad wolf, like, oh my gosh, this could go anywhere.
Speaker 1:Yes, as as a plaintiff's attorney, I am what drying my lips or something like that.
Speaker 1:Just the title because, this is something that's going to be unbelievably subjective and this is going to be something where it's going to be very, very hard to explain to the plaintiff or a potential plaintiff in this case just based on this sentence, that they could have some responsibility here for the stuff that they post online towards their employer, or responsibility towards their employer for the stuff that they post online personally. I'm going to go ahead and get into it or read the rest. I should say. My senior manager recently pulled me into their office and spoke to me about creating a quote inclusive environment at work for colleagues. It totally caught me off guard because I never carry myself in a way that would make other people uncomfortable. Just as an aside, that is a huge red flag. That is an unbelievably huge red flag. I never carry myself in a way that would make other people uncomfortable. I understand that, subjectively, somebody might feel this way. You honestly have no way of knowing this.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's best. I think it's funny because in the way they say it, they're like I would never do that. Yet the post is absolutely about them doing that, so foreshadowing this is going to get fun.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly so we keep going. So they continue here. I kept asking questions to figure out what's going on. Of course you did. That was me editorializing. And I essentially learned that someone had made a complaint about me in regards to the Gaza slash Israel or to Gaza slash Israel, and accused me of being anti-Semitic.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not like the Gaza Israel thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, what happened? Well, ryan, we lost you. Say, say that again.
Speaker 2:It's not like the gaza israel I said, it's not like gaza, israel uh, the dispute and the war and all the stuff going on is a huge issue in the media right now, so I'm surprised anybody even was paying attention to this social media post. It's not like they could have picked literally the biggest thing going on at the current time to complain about one way or the other or to talk about one way or the other.
Speaker 1:Gosh forbid, go on, sorry okay, so and they go on. And the only way my co-workers would even know my position is on social media, well or no. Not quote parentheses, which many of them do. Follow me.
Speaker 1:To be clear, I've never posted or said or entertained any position against a specific person or a person of specific background, but I do post on my personal emphasis. There's social media about how I feel about the state of Israel, but I've made the intentional effort and then, in parentheses because I do have Jewish friends and family close parentheses that it's a political position, not a position against the people yeah, not a position against the people group slash person. But ultimately I never bring this up at work. Exactly for this reason, I vehemently made this point but was basically shut down and said I should just try to be more inclusive. As I see it, it's good only be in reference to my personal social media, as I don't interact with co workers personally. Is there anything I can do at this point they're asking. It seems incredibly unfair that my personal social media is being used against me at work and I can't even hear the accusation being made.
Speaker 2:I can only imagine what this person posted.
Speaker 1:There is a lot to unpack. First of all, we are not taking any type of position on the Israel-Gaza conflict. Yes, agreed that would pop up these days that HR departments would deal with on the employer side and that plaintiff's attorneys would deal with on well, I guess, on the employee side. So let's start by breaking things down a little bit. Essentially, what this is about, ryan, as I see it, is what is your exposure or liability as an employee for posting on social media in context of you know your work, being able to take action against you, like terminating you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, there's so much here. Um, the first thing I would ask my client again assuming it's an employer for would be a copy of the their company handbook, because a lot of companies have provisions in their handbooks discussing social media, urging things about social media, whether positive or negative, and then kind of putting caveats in if things are being talked about related to the business itself. Um, I mean, I just being human, I want to see what this person posted. So that would be my next question. Um, but kind of like broadly or generally, I guess, specifically to California and maybe some other States.
Speaker 2:You can't actually speak just specifically about California. I cannot, as an employer, prevent my employees from posting about certain things. But and certain things, protected activities, like I don't know things. Protected activities like if my, if I terminate my employee for posting a picture of himself or herself with their same sex partner, that would be bad, that would be a lot of liability for my client. But, in the same token, employers are should be happy to hear and a lot of people think this but don't understand or don't know it at all, I guess is that the first amendment protections free speech protections do not apply to private employers in california. Um, do some research, look it up. The first amendment protects you as a human in the united states for from government persecution or retaliation or arrest or whatever. All those words from things that protected speech.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's, let's stop right there, because I think this is the first thing that people are going to kind of catch on to with. Their issue spotting is that, hey, this is a free speech thing, I can say whatever I want. I'm not at work, why can you police what I say? If I want to say I don't like a certain group on social media, what the hell does that matter to you? Know to where I work? It's in my off hours, it's private, so that's you know. I should be able to say what I want. This is America, right, this is America.
Speaker 2:It's the first thing I laughed. Because you say it's private. It's posted on public social media that anybody can see pro or anti the position you were taking. So no, to sum it up, no, what you say is what you say, whether it's out of your mouth or on social media. In a public forum, especially like social media, you're not protected in California from quote, unquote persecution from your employer based on First Amendment, things that usually would be protected by the First Amendment.
Speaker 1:So, Ryan, what I want to ask you is just adjacent to this what are your rights as an employer to fire somebody in general in California?
Speaker 2:Good question. Any person can be fired for any reason at any time, as long as it's not illegal. What is that called Okay employment at will?
Speaker 2:yes, exactly that's sorry, we're sorry, it's one of those things where, like somebody asks you what's two plus two, and they're like uh uh, uh uh, because it's such a basic question. No, that's a good question and it gets confused a lot because people, especially nowadays people think that they're entitled to tons of rights in an at-will employment state. California is, in my experience, because I litigated the worst place to be an employer. I mean, there's lots of positives as to why you should be in California, why you conduct business in California, but employment law in California is like trying to paddle a kayak through the Bering Sea in one of those crab fishing shows where the big boats are getting tossed around Everybody's throwing up. You're in a kayak, you're screwed. Everything's changing, everything's moving. Everybody's throwing up. You're in a kayak, you're screwed. Everything's changing, everything's moving. It's the worst here.
Speaker 2:But yes, at-will employment, meaning that you are hired for your job with no guaranteed term, as opposed to you're being contracted to run the San Diego Padres for a one-year term as a coach. That's a one-year contract. That's different. We're talking about at will employment. You go to a fast food restaurant, you go to a large company to be accounts payable clerk, whatever. At will, you can get fired for any reason at any time, at any time for any reason, or you can quit for any reason at any time.
Speaker 1:That's important to point out, that the the consideration or the balancing here is that as an employee, you can leave at any time. You are not bound to this company. This is not indentured servitude or slavery unless you have a contract with them, signed for a specific term, with specific duties enumerated and probably clauses that determine how termination is to take place or a cessation of the contract, but that is.
Speaker 2:I want to sorry, interject quickly, one for clicks because of what I'm about to say, and two because it happened.
Speaker 2:I made an appellate court argument regarding contractual obligations, um and like who has to do it, like it was a franchise or franchisee case. I represented a franchisee and the argument was well, you can't force us to do it because that's indentured servitude, slavery, essentially in violation of the California and federal constitution. My argument in return was if you hire Taylor Swift to perform at a concert and I show up to sing, that is a breach of contract. You can absolutely either negate the contract or have specific performance to have Miss Swift appear and perform based on your expectations and the languageate the contract, or have specific performance to have Ms Swift appear and perform based on your expectations and the language of the contract. So it's very important to understand that nobody can force you to do anything unless you know, in my Taylor Swift example, that you hired somebody specifically that is very talented and can only do something that nobody else can do. Sorry, a little bit of background and a little bit of Taylor Swift, just for the clicks.
Speaker 1:It's never enough, taylor Swift, in my opinion. So there's a lot of nuances here, some of the things that I just want to talk about that we're going to have to well, not that we're going to have to, but if you are in litigation that you're going to have to think about because we have not done any research on this and just decided to talk about this before we started about three minutes ago. One thing is, you know things to consider in the facts. Was your account private or public at the time? And should that matter? If you have friends, or you know friends in the sense of people that are on your friend list on your social media platform from work? Like, does it matter if people from work side is it? Does it matter if just your family side does it or just your friends or you know? Does it have to be open to the public for everyone to see it?
Speaker 1:And, as another corollary, how long was the post up? Does it matter if the post is up for an hour a day, a second, three weeks? How does that play into it? And what if you delete the posts? And just a lot of things kind of related to the functioning of social media itself and how posts are seen and stay up. I think that is also very important. And are you required, as an employee, to give your social media password to your employer? Let's say in this example Ryan is my boss and I'm the person who made the post on Reddit and Ryan, you come to me and tell, and tell me you know, hey, I want your password.
Speaker 2:You know what would be. Is there a justification for that for employers? Looking at it from that perspective, the password provision, providing a password, I think would not be permitted unless there's something in your, unless you're using company equipment and everything was kind of on the company computer and you acknowledge that in the handbook. But but later on, when I fire you for posting that, if I, in this example, hypothetically, and you sue for wrongful termination, I I will be able to discover and you will be required to produce your social media through discovery. It's all discoverable If you delete it again before, before we file suit, before I'm a notice of suit, there's potential evidence issues, but you're going to have to produce it. Before we dive into all of the questions you asked, all of which are good and all of which are very deep rabbit holes on how the post is presented to the public, meaning specifically if it's posted on Reddit or Facebook versus being posted on like your LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question, because LinkedIn is almost like a quasi work platform, I guess.
Speaker 1:Well, it is a work platform, but it's something that you would sign up personally, usually with your work email address, so you know. That's even more, I think, restricting on what you should be posting on there in general. But I don't know. I mean, I think, like I said, linkedin is almost like they were calling Twitter like a public space, because people treat it like a public space even though it's not by the government, but it's become like the public space for everybody, like the public square where people go to make declarations on. You know how they feel politically, or you know in other ways as well. So I think you know this kind of all would go into a factual analysis once it was, once it was determined that maybe that employees do have the power to take these actions adverse employment, actions against employees so I think it makes a difference in terms of how much well, I guess how much responsibility the employee should be taking for being fired, I guess, guess, I don't really know how to put that but you know it's a private thing.
Speaker 1:I think there's less damages to the company and only a few people saw it, but still worth firing. But here's an interesting question. Let's say you put something on LinkedIn that you hated a certain country and then you're a salesman for a company and your biggest client as a salesman saw you post this and they decided to call up your employer and say hey, you know what, I'm from the other country in this conflict, that's on the other side and I am going to take my business elsewhere now because of your salesman. Do you think that the company would have any recourse to go after the salesman that's their employee for these posts that they had made that led to a loss of the supplier or this buyer?
Speaker 2:This is an amazing example and an amazing question, because, man, there's a lot there. Um, let me start with if the employer excuse me, the salesperson posts something about their personal beliefs that's not protected speech under california law ie, maybe let's say a first man of protection that's not protected by california then you could fire the employee for that. Would it get you anywhere? Probably not, because, again, this is an employee. If this is your largest account as an employer or a big account as an employer, most likely again, I don't know what business we're talking about, but selling of widgets or selling a food or selling of you know, products I'm assuming that that's the company or grosses the company a lot of money more than which the individual who has caused this damage could cover in a lawsuit.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot there between the ability for an employer to fire that employee or any other adverse employee action, let's say demote, put on leave, whatever and then separately, what would the cause of action be for the employer to go against the employee and kind of taking a step back. I feel like if you have an employee that feels so strongly about one thing and it could be anything, religion, you know, same-sex, marriage, race, religion, equality, anything really doesn't matter one way, and they're going to post about it online or in a public forum and you have a customer who feels the opposite of that exact same way of that person, you're going to have a bad time, yeah you're screwed.
Speaker 2:It's just. There's nothing you can do there Right, like, for example, in the example you gave earlier. Well, if this person posted something about Israel, hamas, we don't know what it is, but they posted something, if the customer left the company because of what that employee said, the only recourse you have to really fix it is to fly to freaking Gaza, talk to who you got to talk to to get them to stop and have them make a public apology for your customer, just to get that money back, because it's absurd right, it's not going to happen, there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the reasons I brought this up is to illustrate a lot of times we have clients both plaintiff and defense clients that come to you with these situations where the law has not filled in the gaps yet on what can be done and there is no comfortable answer that we can give you. If somebody would say okay, hey, listen, I just lost a third of my business because my employee wrote something about a geopolitical situation on Twitter and I got an email from my biggest customer saying that he no longer will work with us because of this. Yeah, again, there is legal recourse. I guess if you're the employer, you're going to sue your salesman. Well, I mean, how much money is he going to have? So even if you do have a legal remedy there against the salesman, there's really not much you can go ahead and do that's going to give you any type of practical benefit here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and let's caveat this there's a lot of causes of action out there, especially in California, as to what you can and can't sue somebody for. Just in general, this may or may not apply to the person's intent that if they knew that the customer is going to see it, there's a lot of stuff there. So we're not talking about any of that, we're not saying you can't do it, Just speaking from a practical employer-employee relationship perspective and what you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and again, this is extremely nuanced because, to use that serious real world example, one of the things that one of the phrases that's being used by Hamas or Palestinian supporters is from, was it from the river to the sea or from the mountains to the sea? Let me Google this.
Speaker 2:I don't pay attention to it, but it's something to the sea. I'm that guy that would be I don't protest, protest, but this is just take this as a joke. I'm that guy that would be on college campus like holding my sign up, whatever it said. Pro one way for the free pizza and then the reporter's like oh mr, why are you here?
Speaker 1:and I'll be like I don't know.
Speaker 2:My friend told me to be here like I was here for the pizza and holding the sign I'm broke, Like I got to go to class in about 20 minutes. Can you make this quick?
Speaker 1:From the mountains, from the river to the sea, palestine will be free. That's a translation from, I guess, a phrase that's in Arabic, and there is a lot of talk about this and a lot of debate on whether this is something that is just a kind of innocuous, kind of rallying cry that they have. Or you look at another perspective, where Jewish people will look at that as hey, that is a call to exterminate all the Jews who are in this area, from the mountains to the sea or from the river, everybody in between. That's kind of how it's been taken. So if you have something like that, you know where is, where is the line? Who determines whether that is something that's racist and protected or protected speech? So it's very, very difficult. This is extremely fact based and it's something that would have to go through trial really before you could have like an actual legal answer on what would happen in a situation like this. There's so many variables that you could throw in there. I don't even know if this is an answerable question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no good point. I think, though, that if someone is posting that kind of thing, well, I'm not gonna take all this back.
Speaker 1:I take it all back.
Speaker 2:I don't wanna end this conversation because this is really good and I wanna hit a bunch of these other points before I get my ultimate opinion on it. So we I asked earlier about public versus private, more specifically, linkedin versus like Reddit or Facebook. You asked a bunch of stuff whether it's a public, you have a public account or a, or a restricted, a restricted account somehow where only certain people can see it, versus just open to everybody who saw saw how long it was up, those kind of questions, um this, let's hit these in order. I think and I don't know if this is true because I'm not a tech guy but I don't care if your account is public or private. If it is something that anybody in the internet has interest in, whether it's legitimate or illegitimate ie hackers or terrorist groups or non-terrorist groups or whatever it'll find its way to become public, period.
Speaker 2:And even if it's private, if you make a comment that's not protected by, let's say, california law, that somehow an employee or coworker or customer sees that, obviously the boss is going to be made aware of what that post is or what that social media content says. So I wouldn't rely on. Well, what do you mean? You're terminating me, or you're giving me unpaid leave for two weeks because of this post I made about the most controversial thing in the entire world at the moment, on a very polarizing way of it reading of whatever what do you mean you're doing? That it was private, my account is private. Then my response would be twofold. One, clearly I know about it, so there goes that. And two is if you ever think you're posting something online that's completely private, you are mistaken.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and I think that really goes to the point. Just practically. You have to understand what the line is between friends and co-workers, because your co-workers really don't owe you anything in terms of keeping this private or whatever it is. If they want to share it with your boss, they're completely allowed to do that. I mean, as a person who would get fired for their coworkers reporting on their behavior, that's your own fault. I mean anything that you report, you have to be aware, like Ryan said, it's going to make its way somewhere and then be prepared to accept the consequences.
Speaker 1:As a plaintiff's attorney from a smaller firm where we don't have tons of resources to go after things just based on the principle of it and trying to make new law and things like that, this is, this is you know in in the context of our segment would you take the case?
Speaker 1:I would not take this case. I would absolutely not take this case because, as an employee, you know this is just advice that I would give to anyone. As an employee, you have to understand what is acceptable to talk about at work and not acceptable to talk about at work and not acceptable to talk about at work, and that's going to vary from place to place, but you always have to be mindful of how your views could affect other people, even if they're protected views, because if you're even doing something that's protected let's say you're making protected comments your boss might still figure it's better to get rid of you and basically maybe potentially commit wrongful termination against you because you're affecting the business too much. So it's really going to depend on a lot of things. This is not like an absolute right to sue or something like that, where you can just go on well sued for for this um and uh.
Speaker 2:so now I'm gonna go after you for x amount of dollars, that I'm guaranteed yeah, we needed one of those like keypads where I can press it and it makes a sound, because I want to do one where, like real life alert. Like be careful this may trigger you, but this is about real life and how life really works in the real world. Like I want a button that does that, because I agree with with everything you're saying. Like you might have thoughts about something and you may or may not be able to do anything about those thoughts Like the Gaza, israel thing, for example. You might have thoughts. One way you might be able to do something by like helping or doing whatever you would do in a situation for one side or the other, whatever your belief is.
Speaker 2:But in real life, especially in California, employers don't give a crap. California employers don't give a crap. They don't care. If you're hired to make a widget at a widget factory, nobody cares about your beliefs beyond the widget factory. They want you to make the widget. So if the employer is losing the ability to make widgets because of your belief that your thoughts about some extra widgetal issue are going to somehow help it, they don't. They tell you they don't, they never do, unless you're in a situation where the employer also feels the same way you do, and then you're probably going to get promoted faster, because that's how you know incestuous some employers are with these issues. But the point being is that keep your thoughts to yourself, especially in an employment context. I know that might be hard to hear sometimes, because people want to express themselves and people want to.
Speaker 2:You know it's part of I think you said it already, but what this is america, you know america, part of our culture, like to post on social media and you know, post yourself doing cool things and drinking what, like? What is it called boba tea? Drinking boba tea at a the four seas? I don't like it either, but picking boba tea at a Seasons in the snow with your skis in the background, and learning that's what people do and people make a lot of money doing it. I've represented some of them. They make a lot of money doing it and good for them, but that's not real life. Social media is not real life. Whatj794ataolcom I made that up. So if that's real, I'm sorry. Things about your post on Instagram isn't real life. Like, it's not real life. So for you to go out and jeopardize your entire sorry.
Speaker 2:This is where I started to get irritated because of like. I feel like my kids are going to do this and I hope it doesn't happen. Yeah, rant coming in. I feel like people in California specifically are so feel, so entitled about their thoughts to impress those thoughts about other people, which is where that line is crossed. Um, again, believe whatever you want. I'm a firm believer and everybody should have everything they want in life, but don't force other people to do it. Right? If I was a car mechanic and forced everybody to drive you know honda's and acuras because I knew how to fix them, you'd be like heck, no, I'm gonna drive whatever I want to drive, right. So same goes for religion, political beliefs, sexual orientation beliefs, whatever. Do whatever you want, please be happy.
Speaker 1:But for you to think that you can go out and make a public comment you know essentially that may harm somebody, whether it's your employer or somebody else, and be completely abrogated of any responsibility is absurd and well, part part of the problem, though, which I agree with everything you said, is that it's it's hard to convince somebody that they bear responsibility for something like that a lot of times, because they feel like their comments are objectively true or they don't understand the subjectivity of what they're saying and how other people's views could differentiate from theirs, and that's what causes them, a lot of times, to become very stubborn about these types of issues, because people will get stuck on something. You know hey, listen, it's literally the First Amendment out of all of them. You know, so it's something very important to our country. You know, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, religion, um, uh, and so, um, these are things that, uh, that people generally hold very dear as citizens, and and feel, like any time that's encroached upon by their employer, that that shouldn't be the case. Um you know that's.
Speaker 1:That's really not true. Again, you like, like brian was saying, you know you're, you're there to do a job and and America? Basically, if you look at the Constitution in, this is completely editorializing. But what the Constitution protects you from is other people affecting your ability to pay taxes. So if somebody hits you or injures you, you won't be able to pay. You won't be able to go to work and pay taxes. The government wants to stop that. So that's, that's basically you know. And they want to guarantee contracts and make some sort of penalty for not following through on contracts. You know that's a central function of the American government, in my opinion, to just make it easy for everyone to pay taxes. So if you're engaging in something that is making it difficult for your employer to pay more taxes because they're not making as much money, you're not protected.
Speaker 2:Right, no, and that's actually very well put. I again, I'm caveating all of this with like look, we're just speaking about these things. These are not our personal beliefs. These are not like advice in any way as political or religious or otherwise, or religious or otherwise, but at the same time, like people. A lot of people, especially the younger generation, don't understand the difference between their beliefs and what rights are, like social media and how that's real or not real versus like how the real world works, and it's very, very difficult to deal with in like employment, because at the end of the day, oh, I remember what I was filibustering to life, remembered my example.
Speaker 2:Remember that when you go to a job interview, you're trying to make this person who's interviewing you like you. Of course, obviously, you have to have qualifications and prove you can do the job. But if two people walk into the interview, both being exactly the same in everything, whatever you can imagine, they're both the same, same resume, everything the interviewer will like one more than the other and we'll hire the one they like more. So at a certain point in time it becomes a a, a popularity contest, if you know, assuming all the rest of the same again, and we're not talking about discriminatory things. Discriminatory things. Leave that. Leave that out of this conversation for you listener, and intentionally without the S, the. So anyway, you want them to like you. So if you have to go in and say something to be liked to get hired, and then later on you say some things that will cause you to fall into be disliked or disfavored by your employer, what do you expect is going to happen?
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah, I think very illustrative is a bell curve on the ability for people to do certain jobs. People are going to fall probably in the middle of the bell curve in most cases on their just ability to do a job. So what's going to differentiate them is if the people they're working with like them or not. That's it. People want to just work with people that they're comfortable with and that they like, because they don't want their life turning out to be more difficult.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it just turns into a practical situation with this social media stuff that if you're popping your head up out of the trench, there's a good chance that you're going to get spotted and you have to be very careful with that. And even though you could concoct the scenario as a plaintiff, where getting fired for social media could be actionable against your employer and you could reach a settlement or take it to trial or something like that, the actual logistical battle to get to that point, and even hiring the lawyer as that person, is going to be, uh, just momentous and it's so practically it doesn't make sense to fight these things and it makes a lot more sense just to protect, uh, your image online for this reason, so you can keep your job.
Speaker 2:Right, and I mean, at the end of the day, if you want to be a political pundit, then do it. Go be a political pundit, start a podcast, but at the same time just keep in mind that that's not how the world works. If you want to be an outspoken political political activists, do it, but remember that being outspoken political activist may not lend well to your job. As a blank, insert something here and then you have to make life decisions at that point yeah, I could not agree more.
Speaker 1:Uh, this is. This is again, this is a great example of kind of juxtaposing legal rights with um just behavior on a daily basis, because, um, in my opinion, uh, the legal standard is the lowest standard that you can use, um to guide your life and guide your actions and decisions. It's literally the lowest standard. So, um, that is going to lead to a lot of conflict and, uh, a lot of um just difficulty in in your life if you're just doing everything based on this your strict rights in a legal sense and and this is a great illustration of one of those cases, I think, this social media thing yeah, agreed, that was a great example.
Speaker 2:I don't know how long we ranted about that. That was a great example.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I was really pleased about that. So I don't know, I don't think we have another segment. I think we can wrap it up on a high note. This seemed to be a good episode for us, ryan. I think the break did us well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I liked it because I could actually sink my teeth into some of it, you know, and express some emotion that now I have to deal with in my office by myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we probably could have done some research on this, that probably would have been good too, but we have not, so too bad, that's all you. What do you want for free? This is free. If you want to send me some money, I'll do whatever you well, not whatever you want, but like you know, like I can't ride a horse anymore so, or like I won't be able to do like ski deliveries or something like that, but I can. You can pay me for other stuff. You need a letter, hit me up. Uh, I just want to refer to our sponsors law, or no? Ryan ellis law and law office of arda wilderboard, both just awesome places that do awesome work. Uh, law office of arda wilderboard does not do ski related deliveries. I just want to throw that out there anymore, anymore.
Speaker 1:Yes, after what happened, um, which we'll talk about in a later episode, the same episode where we're going to talk about handbooks, which I don't know if anybody has figured this out yet, because they never listened this far that's never going to happen, but we're going to keep talking about handbooks. Yes, so signing off here, thanks to our fans, uh and um, like I said, hey, do some reviews. Somebody gave us a two-star review on itunes. That's not it.
Speaker 2:Somebody gave us a two-star review on iTunes. That's not a it did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, somebody gave us a two. This is free. Like, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:What did the two-star review say? Can we talk about it?
Speaker 1:No, it didn't even say it was just like a two-star oh.
Speaker 2:And the person gave us a great review.
Speaker 1:Thank you to you.
Speaker 2:Good job give us a reason. I mean, geez, that's. That sounds unfair. But whatever, we'll deal with it. I'm not here for the likes, I'm here for the one and a half. How long is this? However long it takes to to de-stress about specific work related issues yeah, I'm gonna go post on social media about this.
Speaker 1:I'll see you later, thank you.
